How to upload recordings made outside of FourteenFish

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75 comments

  • Dr Sarah Faye Crisp

    The original information from RCGP and reinforced by local deanery is that recordings will be able to be uploaded to the portal for use in the RCA from secure sources- such as IRIS connect which has been given to us to start work towards the exam. 

    Can we gain more clarification this will be the case as otherwise I have a lot of wasted time and effort on video recording- upon the advice of local deanery- if these cannot be used for submission.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hi Sarah, thanks for your comment. We discussed this with the RCGP this morning. In a nutshell yes you will be able to use these recordings provided you can prove consent was obtained from the patient. We are going to update this page shortly. 

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  • Dr Hazel Dent

    Ok good to know as I had the same query as Sarah above. 

    If consent is verbal at the beginning and end of the consultation will that be enough proof?

    I also wondered that if patient identifying goes prior to consent, but consent isnt included in the 10 minutes then I assume neither is the consenting, how can you then be marked on ensuring you have the correct patient?

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  • Dr Sarah Faye Crisp

    Thanks for the clarification, again I would echo Hazel and say would verbal consent at the start of recording be sufficient? Again this is guidance we have been given from local deanery and the RCGP Handbook.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hazel and Sarah – Yes verbal consent at the start of recording is definitely sufficient. We discussed whether the trainee ticking a box to say they received patient consent would be enough, but it was decided it would either need to be...

    • Verbal consent from the patient at the start of the recording
    • Written consent in the form of a photo / scan of a signed form

    We will be updating this page to reflect this in the next couple of hours.

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  • Dr Hazel Dent

    Thank you for the information and I will keep an eye out for further updates. 

    I shall endeavour to clarify about patient identification falling before consent, and therefore not part of the 10 minutes we are assessed on as we have been told the consent does not fall into this, with my deanery. 

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  • Phil Wilks

    Sorry for not addressing that part of your question Hazel. Basically we are talking about the difference between...

    1. Consent ➡️ Identification ➡️ Consultation
    2. Identification ➡️ Consent ➡️ Consultation

    Updated on 12th June 2020: We can confirm that when examiners are assessing your consultations for the RCA exam, they will take into account the time taken for getting consent and will not stop watching the consultation after 10 minutes. For example, if it takes 30 seconds to get consent from the patient then the assessor will be lenient and give you around 10m 30s to conduct the consultation. 

    Due to this, it makes most sense to identify the patient first as you normally would (e.g. DOB, first line of their address) and then ask for consent for recording. This is most natural, and also you could argue that you don't know who you are getting consent from until you check their identity. So to be clear, the best order would be...

    Identification ➡️ Consent ➡️ Consultation

     

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  • Dr Sarah Faye Crisp

    Thank you for your swift and helpful replies Phil. 

    All eagerly awaiting the launch of the platform! 

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  • Dr Safina Kausar

    Hi Phil 

    In the case where verbal consent was taken at the beginning of the consultation and written consent (through text message on AccuRx) at the end of the consultation to confirm they still consent to the recording being used for training purposes, which box would we tick from the 2, or are we able to tick both boxes?

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  • Phil Wilks

    In this case I would go with verbal consent, as that is perfectly adequate and then you don't need to attach any other documentation as the proof of consent is within the recording.

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  • Dr Safina Kausar

    Thanks Phil for the prompt reply

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  • Dr Ali Bakir

    Hi Phil. At the recent RCGP webinar for trainees, the gist I understood was that verbal consent recorded in the patient's medical notes or even taken by reception staff and documented in the patient's medical notes is sufficient and all that is needed from us and our trainers was to confirm on the Fourteen Fish platform that consent is obtained off-record i.e. no further need to upload written consent forms.

    Indeed this is how I have been collected my recordings so far.

    I have just now seen this and it just does not seem right. Can you please clarify.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hi Ali. This policy has come from the college, but I will double check this with them tomorrow and mention the webinar you attended. Can you remember the date of the webinar?

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  • Dr Ali Bakir

    Thanks for double checking. Of course I may have misunderstood. The event was "CSA for AiTs during COVID-19 and forthcoming RCA" Jun 2, 2020

    So following this, is there a way to record consent via SMS from patients on the FourteenFish platform where I am using Third Party software to make the recording? I will likely have to be going back to some patients to request written consent digitally.

    Thanks

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  • Dr Sujatha Krishnaraj

    Hi
    What is the guidance for patient identification process that is acceptable?is there a GDPR restriction?

    Is it acceptable to confirm before consultation about Patient’s full name,date of birth ,first line of address?

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  • Dr Sujatha Krishnaraj

    That is after consent-then identification,before moving to consultation

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  • Dr Debjoy Mallik

    If consent for recording was obtained via Accu RX can this be uploaded as written evidence of consent? Accu RX printouts will not bear a signature of course

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  • Dr Melvyn Adjei

    The original RCGP handbook says if recurring outside of fourteen fish, for verbal consent you must also offer right to withdraw consent after the consultation. On fourteen Fish however it just says verbal consent?

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  • Dr heidi carroll

    please can you supply an appropriate consent form for us to use - we've adapted the usual one to include an addendum that this video may be used for assesment as part of the MRCGP RCA but it would seem sensible to provide one standardised form for all to use to cover this? 

    thanks

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  • Dr Sheraz Mohammed Yasin

    In regards to consent could you confirm as above regarding demographics and introduction is that included in the consent time or not?  As different webinars are saying different things. As for non fourteen fish recordings, it would be difficult to not confirm consent without asking if your talking to the right patient first.  Also in terms of verbal consent for non fourteen fish recordings what would be adequate verbal consent, if the patient is aware the consultation is being recorded as reception informed them at booking, and you acknowledge at the start is that enough? With a follow up accurx message with a consent form where they reply back yes if they are still happy for the recording to be used, as you can take a screen shot of the accurx message. 

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  • Dr Simon Smith

    I also understood from one of the RCGP webinars that verbal consent recorded in the patient's medical notes or taken by reception staff and documented in the patient's medical notes was sufficient and all that was needed. Nothing was mentioned re. uploading forms. I have 2 or 3 good recordings done in this way. 

    Phil you mentioned you were going to check this - did you get an answer?

    Thanks

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  • Phil Wilks

    Sorry for the delay in getting back to you about this. I will try and get a firm answer for you today.

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  • Dr Eamon Al-Hadithi

    Any update on when we will be able to upload videos from external sources? I have quite a few videos made through iris connect that will need to be transferred over here and the more this feature is getting delayed the more anxious it is making me! Thanks

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  • Dr Sonakshi Khorana

    Hi, just wanted to check when the upload feature will become available.
    From reading above it looks like a wide range of formats will be accepted (I.e from Apple/android/mp3 etc), is that correct as I have a fair few recordings. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks!

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  • Dr Thomas Kelly

    Hi I am a trainee in Gloucestershire and we have been sent an email from our deanery at 16:50 today advising that we only use 14 fish from now to record consultations. The email stated there were some potential data security issues with uploading from other platforms and they were working on this.

     

    I have been recording consultations with consent as advised by the college and 14 fish and reviewing these with my trainer. 

     

    I am very worried that 14 fish will now potentially on the opening day of the submission period change their platform so we are not able to upload our consultations that we have been recording.

     

    This situation is stressful enough without guidance changing the night before the opening date.

     

    Can you please give clarification and reassurance that we will be able to upload our recorded consultations to 14fish from other platforms?

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  • Dr Simon Smith

    Phil do you have an update please? The advice re. consent is all over the place currently and causing a lot of us anxiety with respect to consultations already concluded. Thanks

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  • Dr Mohammad Tabrez Hussain

    Hi Phil,

    I wanted to clarify about the consenting.

    1. I always take written consent before face to face consultation. Do I need to record the consent?

    2. I can see you advised for consent first then identity check then consultation. How is it possible to consent someone then check identity? 

    3. So far I am taking the consent which is not recorded and simply start consultation by addressing patient name. Is it right or I need to check identity again? which feels more unnatural.

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  • Dr Mohammad Tabrez Hussain

    I also wanted to check one more thing. I am recording the telephone calls by putting the patient on speaker. Is it okay to do that?

    In my Practice there is no phone network therefore I am not planning to record directly on fourteenfish.

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  • Dr Oluwatosin Abdulhakeem Folorunsho

    Hi Phil,

    If the consent was taken before the start of the audio consultation ( Not part of the recording) and you mentioned at the beginning of the recording "Verbal Consent Obtained", Would this be enough to Tick verbal consent box? Thank you.

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  • Dr Simon Smith

    Is anyone from 14F looking at this? 

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