How to upload recordings made outside of FourteenFish

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75 comments

  • Dr Joy Dodd

    Hi please can you help. I've tried to upload several of my videos but they aren't working. It says processing failed. All my videos are in MOV file. They are all over 1GB but less than 2GB. (Well one is > 2GB but I am trying to compress this). The system says that it will take up to 2GB. 

     

    Why is this not working? I have contacted the help centre 2 days ago and still not heard anything.

    Thanks

     

    Joy

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  • Dr Hazel Dent

    Ok good to know as I had the same query as Sarah above. 

    If consent is verbal at the beginning and end of the consultation will that be enough proof?

    I also wondered that if patient identifying goes prior to consent, but consent isnt included in the 10 minutes then I assume neither is the consenting, how can you then be marked on ensuring you have the correct patient?

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  • Dr Raghad Orton

    Hi, I want to check about uploading accurx messages used to consent patients as they include the patient's name, NHS number and DOB. Is it acceptable to upload a screen shot of this or would it breach confidentiality?

    Thanks

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  • Dr Sonakshi Khorana

    Hi,

    Just wanted to check does checking identity, DOB and confirming consent count in the total 10 mins? Checking identity and consent is taking up valuable 30 seconds. Thanks

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  • Dr Safina Kausar

    Thanks Phil for the prompt reply

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  • Dr Ali Bakir

    Hi Phil. At the recent RCGP webinar for trainees, the gist I understood was that verbal consent recorded in the patient's medical notes or even taken by reception staff and documented in the patient's medical notes is sufficient and all that is needed from us and our trainers was to confirm on the Fourteen Fish platform that consent is obtained off-record i.e. no further need to upload written consent forms.

    Indeed this is how I have been collected my recordings so far.

    I have just now seen this and it just does not seem right. Can you please clarify.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hi Simon – I'm really sorry but I'm afraid I can't give any more details on the official RCGP policy on any other form of electronically recorded consent that doesn't fit criteria above. I honestly don't know the answer, but hopefully we will soon and then I will update this page. In the mean time I would advise you to contact the college about this on exams@rcgp.org.uk or 020 3188 7660.

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  • Dr Simon Smith

    Phil - So you've now changed:

    "If the first option (verbal consent) is selected, then as long as this is clearly audible towards the start of the recording then that’s all that’s required."

    to 

    "If the first option (verbal consent) is selected, then as long as this is clearly in the recording then that's all that's required.

    Does that mean the same thing?

    Where is the option for electronically recorded consent that is clearly specified as an option in the RCGP documents below?

    1) MRCGP Examination Recorded Consultation Assessment Policy: Last revised 5 June 2020 (https://www.rcgp.org.uk/-/media/Files/GP-training-and-exams/CSA-page/CSA-RCA/MRCGP-examination-RCA-policy-june-2020.ashx?la=en)

    Sections 2.4 to 2.9 says verbal consent must be at the start and end of the recording. Also says that if consent is not evidenced on the recording written (paper or electronic) consent should be obtained and retained by the candidate.

    2) MRCGP Examination Recorded Consultation Assessment Candidate Handbook To be read in conjunction with the RCA Policy Document and FAQs Last revised 9 June 2020 ( https://www.rcgp.org.uk/-/media/Files/GP-training-and-exams/MRCGP/mrcgp-rca-candidate-handbook-090620.ashx?la=en)**

    Page 3: “It is the responsibility of the candidate to obtain consent from the patient under the usual guidance for training and GDPR. This may be on the FourteenFish RCA Platform directly where this is used to record the consultation, written (paper/electronic) or verbally (on camera, the timing of which will not be counted as part of the ten minutes to be assessed or off camera, but a record kept)

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  • Phil Wilks

    Michael and Safina – I'm sorry about this. We are working on fixing this now. It's affecting about 10% of uploads. We hope to have it fixed by 11am.

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  • Dr Arshia Mohammadi

    Hi Phil

    After uploading the video file from my iPad the audio quality is severely degraded. It is absolutely clear when I play it on my iPad, but when I play the uploaded file cannot figure out what the conversation is going on. There is an additional continuous hushing sound in the background. My worry is how can the examiners mark it when they cannot hear it clearly.

    Regards

    Ash

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  • Dr Eamon Al-Hadithi

    Hi there just hoping for a bit of advice whether a case is suitable. I spoke to the mother of a 16 year old teenager with a new complaint of a Rash, the patient has autism and it has been agreed previously that his mother can talk on his behalf and in the notes. It doesn’t specifically mention this is the recording and I just proceed to take the history from the mother. Would this be OK if I included this info in the workbook on fourteen fish?

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  • Phil Wilks

    Raghad Orton – It would be good to check they are still happy to have had it recorded, but you do not need to submit evidence of the second consent.

    In answer to your second question, you would still need to submit evidence that the patient actively consented to having the consultation recorded. Unfortunately evidence that all calls are recorded wouldn't be good enough, it needs to be a text message, paper form or embedded in the recording itself.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hi Suleman, yes sorry this applies to all consultations regardless of where they were done. The examiner will basically start a 10 minute timer at the start of the consultation's "clinical content".

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  • Phil Wilks

    John Vernon – You should keep the identity check in the consultation. The examiner will take into account the time it takes to ask for recording consent if this is part of the recording.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Gwion Rhys Williams – There shouldn't be any issues with uploading videos now. The problem started on Thursday and was fixed on Friday at about 11:15am. Looking at the time of your comment it might be that the issue was there when you were trying to upload your files. If you are still having issues, please could you let me know what web browser you're on (Internet Explorer, Chrome etc) as well as whether you are on a work or home network?

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hi Debjoy – Yes, a print out of an Accu RX conversation is fine. I'm guessing you can get a PDF of this? If not then just take a screenshot.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hazel and Sarah – Yes verbal consent at the start of recording is definitely sufficient. We discussed whether the trainee ticking a box to say they received patient consent would be enough, but it was decided it would either need to be...

    • Verbal consent from the patient at the start of the recording
    • Written consent in the form of a photo / scan of a signed form

    We will be updating this page to reflect this in the next couple of hours.

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  • Dr Sarah Faye Crisp

    Thanks for the clarification, again I would echo Hazel and say would verbal consent at the start of recording be sufficient? Again this is guidance we have been given from local deanery and the RCGP Handbook.

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  • Dr Safina Kausar

    Hi Phil 

    In the case where verbal consent was taken at the beginning of the consultation and written consent (through text message on AccuRx) at the end of the consultation to confirm they still consent to the recording being used for training purposes, which box would we tick from the 2, or are we able to tick both boxes?

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  • Phil Wilks

    Simon Smith – You don't need to submit evidence of the patient confirming their consent after the consultation, it's just the initial consent that is required for the RCA.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Joy Dodd – I can see a couple of files you uploaded were ZIP files (7z / 7 Zip). Please just upload the raw video file without zipping it first. If you still have issues with uploading MOV files please let us know. I'll reply to your support ticket now in case you don't see this.

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  • Dr Mohammad Tabrez Hussain

    I also wanted to check one more thing. I am recording the telephone calls by putting the patient on speaker. Is it okay to do that?

    In my Practice there is no phone network therefore I am not planning to record directly on fourteenfish.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hi Heidi – The RCGP have an standard consent form that you can use 

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  • Dr Suleman Sami

    Hi Phil,

     

    Once again thanks for your responses. really helpful

     

    I just find it Slightly odd that for video consultation (on RCA 14fish platform) a consent is needed before and after consultation but for a telephone call a consent at the end of call is not sought through this platform.

    why is that?

    The guidance from RCGP; if i am correct was consent before and after all consultations whether it is video, face to face or telephone?

    thank you

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  • Phil Wilks

    Hello everyone! Thank you so much for your patience and I'm very sorry it's taken a long time to get a straight answer to your questions.

    We have been working hard on the uploading process to make it as seamless as possible to allow you to upload a large variety of file formats (basically any video or audio format in existence), and also making sure we can cope will big files up to 1Gb.

    Late yesterday evening the system for uploading recordings was made available. This morning we also had some further clarification from the RCGP about exactly what is and is not acceptable as consent evidence.

    The help article on this page has been updated this morning, so you can see exactly what the process for uploading recordings is.

    I'll try and address some recurring questions here, and then separately reply to your more specific questions...

    Regarding patient consent, ultimately the RCGP make the decision about what is and isn't acceptable. At the time of writing this (about midday on 12th June) the RCGP are in the process of producing more guidance on exactly what is an isn't acceptable as evidence. Once this is available (Monday hopefully) then we will summarise the guidance here.

    For the time being, we have now had confirmation from the RCGP data protection officer that the following evidence will definitely be acceptable...

    • Verbal consent as part of the recording
    • Screenshots of a text message (SMS) conversation with the patient
    • A photo or scan of a signed consent form

    Our understanding is that notes made by practice staff in the patient's clinical notes will not be acceptable. Basically, you either need to have the patient verbally consenting in the recording, or you need a screenshot, scanned document or other image that shows the patient actively giving consent. Just to be clear, this doesn't apply to recordings made via the FourteenFish platform because we collect consent automatically. 

    When examiners are assessing your consultations for the RCA exam, they will take into account the time taken for getting consent and will not stop watching the consultation after 10 minutes. For example, if it takes 30 seconds to get consent from the patient then the assessor will be lenient and give you around 10m 30s to conduct the consultation. 

    Due to this, it makes most sense to identify the patient first as you normally would (e.g. DOB, first line of their address) and then ask for consent for recording.

    Please do feel to ask any other questions you have below.

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  • Phil Wilks

    Arshia Mohammadi – I'm sorry about this, it's not something we have come across before. Please could you let me know the ID of the affected consultation so we can look at our transcoding logs? You can find this by going to view the consultation and going down towards the bottom of the page. It will say something like "The ID of this consultation is: 123456"

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  • Dr heidi carroll

    Thanks Phil, very much appreciate your responses and help as we try to get to grips with this. I note the RCGP form you suggest states 1y before recordings deleted- can I just check this as thought with data protection we had changed this to three months? thanks for clarifying

    Heidi

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  • Phil Wilks

    Sorry for not addressing that part of your question Hazel. Basically we are talking about the difference between...

    1. Consent ➡️ Identification ➡️ Consultation
    2. Identification ➡️ Consent ➡️ Consultation

    Updated on 12th June 2020: We can confirm that when examiners are assessing your consultations for the RCA exam, they will take into account the time taken for getting consent and will not stop watching the consultation after 10 minutes. For example, if it takes 30 seconds to get consent from the patient then the assessor will be lenient and give you around 10m 30s to conduct the consultation. 

    Due to this, it makes most sense to identify the patient first as you normally would (e.g. DOB, first line of their address) and then ask for consent for recording. This is most natural, and also you could argue that you don't know who you are getting consent from until you check their identity. So to be clear, the best order would be...

    Identification ➡️ Consent ➡️ Consultation

     

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  • Dr Thomas Kelly

    Hi Phil

     

    I have been seeking advice from the RCGP and had an email from them stating that checking the patient details would not be included in the ten minutes of assessment. 

    thanks

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  • Dr Arshia Mohammadi

    Hi Phil,

    The ID are as follows:

    51008

    76455

    76460

    Regards

    Ash

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